Can ants feel pain? in General Discussion Forum

Can ants feel pain?

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Vendayn	Can ants feel pain?		Lead	[-]
TAFAMF Addict Posts: 2797 07/02/2010 8:59 AM	I was wondering this yesterday when I went to Torrey Pines. I was watching a Pogonomyrmex californicus colony, and a few of the workers would go up to what I believe is some type of Dorymyrmex ant...and cover the Dorymyrmex nest entrance with sticks and dirt. Well, the Dorymyrmex would become aggressive and try to attack the Pogonomyrmex workers. They would try to latch themselves onto their legs and/or crawl on their body. Well, the Pogonomyrmex worker that was being attacked, would then go into a frenzy, and start moving erratically to get the Dorymyrmex off. Which then I thought...I wonder if they feel pain when they are attacked or injured. I think snails feel pain, don't they? But I know they are rather different. And I posted an article a while back (I tried searching for it, but can't seem to find it, the thread nor the article)...where someone(s) saw that when queen ants and worker ants sleep, they get twitches in their legs/antenna like they are dreaming. A bit different, but if ants/insects dream, wouldn't they be able to feel pain and what not?
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saL		#1	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 426 07/02/2010 12:20 PM	I don't see why not.
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Doctorant		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3775 07/02/2010 2:16 PM Doc. and Soldier Ant	Bert Hoelldobler, myrmecologist extraordinaire, claims they do not feel pain as we know it. They walk about seemingly quite painlessly with some rather serious damage done to their bodies.
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antdude		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 31172 07/02/2010 3:35 PM Borg Ant, Your Forum Overlord & Basic English Cop/Enforcer/Police.	Doctorant wrote: Bert Hoelldobler, myrmecologist extraordinaire, claims they do not feel pain as we know it. They walk about seemingly quite painlessly with some rather serious damage done to their bodies. That is probably why ants don't cringe or anything when they lose their abdomens, antennae, etc. This thread gets a kudo! Quote of the Week: Have I told you how much I like ants, huh? Especially fried in a subtle blend of mech fluid and grated gears?" --Rampage to Inferno, "Transmutate" (S2E10) in Transformers (Beast Wars). Ant(Dude) @ The Ant Farm (Personal Web Site), Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL), and The Ant Farm and Myrmecology Forum. Edited 1 time by antdude 07/03/2010 1:30 AM.
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Harpegnathos	Hypothesis	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1349 07/03/2010 12:05 AM U.S. Army VeterANT/Soldier	Pain is useful if it causes an organism to respond in a way that prevents further damage. Your finger hurts--you pull it out of the candle flame. There is nothing an ant can do about damage it has already received, so pain would serve no useful purpose. If, on the other hand, some vile little Dorymyrmex is spraying its poison on a Pogo, the Pogo should respond as though it were in pain. Then it can retreat, attack the Dorymrymex, or try to shake off the pest. If you felt no pain, you still might have sense to pull your finger out of a candle flame before it received serious damage, as long as you were aware your finger was in the flame. You might not even need sense, just instinct. You look, you see your finger is in the flames, you jerk it away. An ant might not feel pain, but still recognize--likely by smell, its most developed sensory capability--that it was under attack by harmful poisons. The useful purpose of pain would be achieved, even if the actual sensory experience is different from what we think of as pain. H Edited 1 time by Harpegnathos 07/03/2010 10:10 AM.
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Shaman		#5	[url]	[-]
Young Worker Ant Posts: 32 07/03/2010 9:20 AM	Bert Hoelldobler, myrmecologist extraordinaire, claims they do not feel pain as we know it. They walk about seemingly quite painlessly with some rather serious damage done to their bodies. I think the key phrase there is "as we know it". They certainly have nerves, and they do seem to register physical threats, otherwise they wouldn't try to shake off another ant that's biting them. I'd have to guess that they do, personally. It probably wouldn't work or feel the same way as pain does for us, but if it does the same thing for the ant, then pain is just as good a word as any- if it walks like a duck and so on. Unless you want to go with "reaction of the nervous system that warns the brain of occurring or potential tissue damage."
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antdude		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 31172 07/03/2010 11:29 AM Borg Ant, Your Forum Overlord & Basic English Cop/Enforcer/Police.	Shaman wrote: Bert Hoelldobler, myrmecologist extraordinaire, claims they do not feel pain as we know it. They walk about seemingly quite painlessly with some rather serious damage done to their bodies. I think the key phrase there is "as we know it". They certainly have nerves, and they do seem to register physical threats, otherwise they wouldn't try to shake off another ant that's biting them. I'd have to guess that they do, personally. It probably wouldn't work or feel the same way as pain does for us, but if it does the same thing for the ant, then pain is just as good a word as any- if it walks like a duck and so on. Unless you want to go with "reaction of the nervous system that warns the brain of occurring or potential tissue damage." Hmm, I think we need more studies on this! I assume this is difficult after many decades. Quote of the Week: Have I told you how much I like ants, huh? Especially fried in a subtle blend of mech fluid and grated gears?" --Rampage to Inferno, "Transmutate" (S2E10) in Transformers (Beast Wars). Ant(Dude) @ The Ant Farm (Personal Web Site), Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL), and The Ant Farm and Myrmecology Forum.
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saL		#7	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 426 07/03/2010 1:42 PM	I'm pretty sure they feel pain but perhaps have a high tolerance for it. Ants are both beautiful and strong creatures, I'd say only the spider can match my respect for them.
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Realypk		#8	[url]	[-]
Minor Worker Ant Posts: 82 07/09/2012 10:48 PM	I think the better question here is: Are ants capable of suffering? Love my internet speed!
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Nuno		#9	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 465 07/11/2012 3:52 AM	Most consider stress a type of pain. If so, ants do "feel" pain. Simple chemical stimuli can trigger strong stress reactions. Though I don't think that is exactly what Vendayn was referring to
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mordam		#10	[url]	[-]
Henchant Posts: 1799 07/11/2012 1:41 PM	When injured, they do go through an adjustment period in many cases. I have seen ants curl up in a ball from the loss of a limb or being pressed firmly on accident, only to recover a short time later. The loss of limbs can change the way they move completely, and some seem to eventually return to near normal movement. The changes are very gradual, but they can bounce back quite well. Whether or not this is an indication of having felt pain or just adjusting to loss or shock, I do not know. Mordam Main website www.tarheelants.com A collection of news posts and photos http://www.facebook.com/tarheelants Our video catalogue http://www.youtube.com/user/tarheelants Subscribe http://feedburner.google.com/fb/a/mailverify?uri=TarHeelAnts&loc=en_US
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Nuno		#11	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 465 07/12/2012 1:41 AM	mordam wrote: When injured, they do go through an adjustment period in many cases. I have seen ants curl up in a ball from the loss of a limb or being pressed firmly on accident, only to recover a short time later. The loss of limbs can change the way they move completely, and some seem to eventually return to near normal movement. The changes are very gradual, but they can bounce back quite well. Whether or not this is an indication of having felt pain or just adjusting to loss or shock, I do not know. If they didn't have that type of reaction they'd probably be extinct. I think it'll be a while until somebody has a definite answer. Scientists have only recently tried to prove (with some success) that advanced crustaceans like crabs feel physical pain. I'd like to see a similar approach on ants! But for now, my guess is they don't...
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MrCROant		#12	[url]	[-]
Adult Worker Ant Posts: 183 07/12/2012 4:26 AM	Even if they don't feel pain which is nonsense you should always handle them as they do feel pain.
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Nuno		#13	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 465 07/12/2012 5:08 AM	MrCROant wrote: Even if they don't feel pain which is nonsense you should always handle them as they do feel pain. Nonsense you say? I completely agree with the last part of your statement (I doubt anyone would disagree) but why is it nonsense if they don't?
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Vendayn		#14	[url]	[-]
TAFAMF Addict Posts: 2797 07/12/2012 11:41 PM	Can't plants feel pain/emotion of some sort? Thought Mythbusters did a thing on that, and they proved it to be true. The plant sent out certain signals or something, when it was cut. And then the plant sent different signals when there was peaceful music. Or something like that, I only heard about that episode. So, if plants can (in some way)...I know they are different things, but plants aren't even an animal of any sort. So, why couldn't ants or other living things? If something simple, like a plant, feels pain/emotion or something...then it isn't so crazy ants or bees or anything else that is living can. Maybe not like humans, but maybe something similar.
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Nuno		#15	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 465 07/13/2012 7:36 AM	Vendayn I understand how that intrigues you. But sorry to disappoint you, plants cannot feel pain or emotions. As living beings plants need to react and adapt to thrive. I am not aware of that episode of Mythbusters but I could imagine they might have measured things like hormone flux, diverse compound production, (de)polarizations, etc. In their case that doesn't relate to pain. Even bacteria would react in that way to such stimuli. They don't have any kind organ/tissue developed in order to confer them that ability.
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Vendayn		#16	[url]	[-]
TAFAMF Addict Posts: 2797 07/13/2012 8:25 AM	Nuno wrote: Vendayn I understand how that intrigues you. But sorry to disappoint you, plants cannot feel pain or emotions. As living beings plants need to react and adapt to thrive. I am not aware of that episode of Mythbusters but I could imagine they might have measured things like hormone flux, diverse compound production, (de)polarizations, etc. In their case that doesn't relate to pain. Even bacteria would react in that way to such stimuli. They don't have any kind organ/tissue developed in order to confer them that ability. Yeah, I didn't see the episode either. But, I think it was the opposite, and the myth was busted. Instead of relying on a friend who watched it (which he saw a while ago), I ended up looking on Google. So, cancel that one post. :P It just seems kind of counter-productive to me, as a human, (at least in an animal) not to feel some sort of pain or something similar. Like as an example...what if humans couldn't feel? They would put their hand on a hot stove over and over, getting burned each time. But, they wouldn't realize they were hurting their hand. Maybe ants don't need that and rely on their other senses they have. Since ants are, well...definitely not humans. Humans don't even have an exo-skeleton. :P I do know pain is kind of one of those, important "features" to animals. Whether that is true for ants and other insects...I don't know. It would be interesting to see more research into this. Unless there is already studies done on it. Doesn't seem like it is a subject people know too sure, if it is true or not. It may not be like how people feel pain, but it could be something similar. Or nothing at all.
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Nuno		#17	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 465 07/13/2012 9:26 AM	Yes this is a very complex field. Even though we are all animals, when you go from invertebrates (ants) to vertebrates (humans) it becomes risky to extrapolate most of things. Like I said, only recently have scientist tried to discover if big crabs feel pain, let alone ants... And it is never very strait forward. Their findings suggest they do feel pain (or discomfort or whatever it really is), but we know for a fact, for a long time ago now, that crabs often remove their own limbs and keep on like nothing happened. Only in extreme situations (some) humans would do that, because of the pain they would feel. Based on my current knowledge and some intuition I still agree with Bert Hoelldobler, they don't feel "our" pain.
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Pheidole pilifera		#18	[url]	[-]
Henchant Posts: 1014 07/13/2012 9:29 AM	A few days ago, I was watching a Myrmica worker stagger across the sidewalk with a tiny Solenopsis molesta ant firmly attached to her leg. She appeared very agitated and would make frequent stops to vigorously rub her injured leg. I have come across a myriad of other similar situations in the ant world. More and more studies have been showing up lately indicating that invertebrate nervous systems are far more complex than previously imagined. I have no trouble believing that nearly all animals can feel "pain" of some sort. As Vendayn pointed out, humans would have gone extinct long ago without it.
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Xinkon		#19	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 330 07/18/2012 6:28 PM	It could just be reflexive, no thought about pain but a sudden response from the nervous system. Realistically with current research it's just here-say as to what an ant feels. But I will say that they have proven that lobsters feel pain, opiates that react with the central nervous system block pain for them much in the same way as they do for humans. More research should be done on this topic but undoubtedly in the most sensitive of ways, I'd hate to see any harm come to an ant!
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Nuno		#20	[url]	[-]
Major Worker Ant Posts: 465 07/23/2012 6:17 AM	Xinkon wrote: It could just be reflexive, no thought about pain but a sudden response from the nervous system. Realistically with current research it's just here-say as to what an ant feels. But I will say that they have proven that lobsters feel pain, opiates that react with the central nervous system block pain for them much in the same way as they do for humans. More research should be done on this topic but undoubtedly in the most sensitive of ways, I'd hate to see any harm come to an ant! Yes, no matter what, keep your ants safe and healthy!
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Can ants feel pain?

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