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07/28/2009 3:56 PM
Forum Overlord,and Basic English Cop/Enforcer/Police.
07/28/2009 5:49 PM
07/28/2009 7:24 PM
07/29/2009 8:26 AM
don't agree with you and by and large it's all about Education, Education, Education and educating people.
gun laws and other such issues. We don't have those issues in Europe because Guns are completely banned, our police officers do not have guns here in the
United Kingdom. No one can own a gun, have a gun. If you are found with a gun it is a 5 year prison sentence Minimum,
you really do have to go to prison no bargaining, no excuses and for 5 Years Minimum Very few crimes involve guns over here; it's rare compared to the huge
gun crime statistics of the US.
Europe children and young adults are educated to protect, preserve their own natural species in each individual European Country. We have European laws now
that insist Countries must bring about increases in all their own countries rare species of plants and animals. Also we have high education to educate people
about animals and insects. This is why it is generally considered that people can keep insects that are considered to
be invasive. People / our society believe that our citizens are responsible and are able to keep allsorts of animals be it beetles, ants, lizards,
comes back to education and what is socially acceptable. So we don't have guns because this is socially unacceptable. Guns Kill... Full Stop
We can keep
ants of most species because we believe and feel the threat of invasion is so small, everyone has a high education even the poorer families / social housing
areas. All children attend the same quality schools regardless of parental income. There are Ant species that are banned and so yes people can not import, keep
or own those species.
Ants - If you have proper documentation, health papers and permission to remove Leaf Cutter Ants from the country of origin and they can enter the UK and most
European countries. You must have that European countries permission and licence. The licence costs about $50 US, you have to of course register your name and
home address, it is checked out to see if you have criminal record (specifically for importing smuggled animals). If all is ok then you get the papers and must
collect your animals (in this case Ants from the Airport). You submit your paper work, its checked and so the Ants
papers that travel with them are checked to. In the US
this is the same of course but you can not import Ants
if you apply to import Ants that are banned you will not get permission, because you must list the species that you wish to import on your licence application
understand if you feel your own younger people and adults are not responsible to have Exotic Ants species. In The US you have to be 21 to drink, here its 18
and in France, Spain, and Greece its 16 years... Because in France, Spain and Greece their young people are more
responsible drinkers, here in the UK our people are not as well behaved, so its 18 years.
remember and I appreciate that this is mainly a US Ant forum, but you are only one country and are of course speaking for your selves and what you believe
should or should not happen in your country.
ideas that I have just read are considered draconian and what we term as Nanny state ideas. This means that a small
group of people come up with ideas and agree with each other and then try to Nanny other people in accepting those ideas.
do not count me in, I do not agree with you.. It is your opinion. You are saying that for now it is in your opinion people in the US are not able to be
responsible to keep these Ant species.
I do not
live in the US but I really do believe there are so many responsible US people who are well able to have and keep Non US species. I have met many US and Canadian people and to me they are very bright, friendly and have excellent social skills. I could say so many positive things about both US and Canadian people and to me have are very educated too. US people also have
exceptional leadership skill and are very creative. However I can only say this about those US & Canadian people I have met and worked with. The USA is a
very large country and there are so many people and cultures.
topic that has been raised is a very important one and as I have written in an earlier posting, The USA has such extreme climates and the risks are bigger. I
should point out whilst you are debating this topic, you need not worry too much because at this moment its is illegal to move queen ants across US state lines
/ states. Also you are banned from importing any genus / species of queen ant/ants
debate is on the Concept
able to own or raise Ant species that are not local to your US State or are not USA species of Ant, its a Concept because it does not exist in
reality. A few people may have such species but in law it's illegal, so they should not have those exotic.
here in Europe it's a Reality.
My Leaf Cutter Ant species are doing very well and as you know there are topics in this forum on.
Should Leaf Cutter Ants fungus be kept in the dark or in the open where people can see it?
I am sure
someone will write something very creative as a response to my Post, But I have to say I do not agree with other posts posted here on this topic. This
is my opinion.
07/29/2009 1:19 PM
I'm going to throw my two cents in. I think this topic's name should be changed to debate on the
international trade laws or something like that and unstickied or what ever the term is for being taken off the top of the list. Either way it should be
replaced by a topic that says something like Read this or get banned: rules on the selling of ants in this forum. Copy in Antdude's original post, maybe
add in some strong wording about how the sale of ants will not be tolerated on this board and close the thread like this one was originally. If you wanted to
represent some of the reasons behind our position or some of the debate, I think Drake's and MrILoveTheAnts' original posts do a good job of that.
Either copy those first few post in or I'm sure they'd both be willing to edit them a little and repost them in the new thread. But then it should be
closed to debate. This is mainly a North American Forum were it is illegal to trade ants. There are plenty of European forums out there for those that want
to talk about things involving the sale of ants. I enjoy seeing and hearing about the ants and their keepers in other countries. I love having them on this board, but I don't enjoy them telling us to change our laws or our ways. I think it's a simple question, without a simple answer. With ants, like any
non-native species there is always a chance it will become invasive when introduced to a foreign environment. How big
that chance is depends on the environment and the species, but it is never zero. No one ever really 100% knows what
will happen when a species is introduced until it is. The problem is I don't want to chance that all or any of my
native ant species replaced by some foreign invader just because your ten year old wanted an ant farm. Not for your
kids, it's even sadder that you as an adult can't be happy with the native ant species around you. Go get a
membership to the zoo or even a job there instead, for example the Cincinnati Zoo has both a colony of bullet ants and leaf cutters on display. Even better yet spend some time with your kid in a park or even your own backyard looking for that queen. There are plenty of us on this forum more than happy to answer any question you might have along the way. I know some people just don't have the time do all that 'work,' but then maybe ants aren't the right pets for
them. That must be a sad life not to have even an hour here or there to spend with your kids, I don't care how nice
your car or house is.
I don't why it bugs me so much, but it does. I removed the 4 page rant about the stupidity behind the statement 'guns kill' before I posted, but I
can't let it go. Guns don't kill. Stupidity, People and Diseases kill people (one could argue that the first two causes are one in the same and apply
to anyone who makes a statement like guns kill). An inanimate object like a gun, a knife, or a spoon doesn't wake up one day and say "I feel like
killing someone today". But people have said and done that long before guns, knives, or even spoons were invented.
FYI banning guns has yet to put an end to gun related deaths in any country that has tried it. Even if you got
your wish and all the guns where gone tomorrow, I somehow suspect the criminals would just use insert any other inanimate object here to kill
07/29/2009 2:14 PM
07/29/2009 6:14 PM
fact is, Experts in entomology, agree importing, trading, and moving insects across boarders are not good for the many native ecosystems. '
Yes this is fact; I am not in disagreement with this statement or there research.
But the topic heading is;
Consequences of rearing of exotic ant
For US Ant Keepers and
collectors in the US this is a Concept,
Because it should not be a fact.
Chuck wrote very strongly that,
mainly a North American Forum were it is illegal to trade ants. There are plenty of European forums out there for those that want to talk about things
involving the sale of ants. I enjoy seeing and hearing about the ants and their keepers in other countries. I love having them on this board, but I don't
enjoy them telling us to change our laws or our ways'.
So no US
person should be trading or keeping exotic Ant species. Fact. The
topic heading is consequences of rearing of exotic ant species, which no one should be actively doing with in the US. Fact
Whilst people of other countries are exchanging or
trading Ants Species across there borders, Fact.
So from the US point of view you are discussing the
concept of rearing exotic Ant species and what those consequences could be so it's a Concept.. This should be about what may or could happen?
ants, like any non-native species there is always a chance it will become invasive when introduced to a foreign environment.
I fully agree with this but this is not by US people
rearing exotic species because it's illegal to do so and most likely would occur by some other way that the Ant Species enter US borders. Fact
this topic's name should be changed to debate on the international trade laws or something like that and unstickied or what ever the term is for being
taken off the top of the list. Either way it should be replaced by a topic that says something like Read this or get banned: rules on the selling of ants in
I have in no
way implied that you US people should change your laws and I am not telling other people what they should do. However I do believe if you really want to
debate, discuss Consequences of rearing of exotic ant
species everyone needs to look at what is happening in other countries where Ant keepers are rearing exotic species, this is a fact because that is what is
But it's a concept you
are discussing when it comes to talking about US people rearing exotic Ant species, simply because its illegal to sell, trade, import, raise exotic Ant
species.... so no one should be doing this in the US and so it should not be happening.
So if you wish to look at
models of the real consequences of rearing exotic Ant species you will have to look outside of the US to what is happening with those exotic Ant species being
kept by Ant keepers in other countries and if it has had an effect on their countries environment. Have species escaped and become invasive?
So I conclude if you're
staying with the topic on the US and only the US then
Is a Concept not
a Fact.... it is what could or may
happen to your US environments.
idea or an abstract idea) for example a concept piece of Art is an idea of what the art is or will be)
It only becomes factual once it has been made.
(An event or
thing known to have happened or existed) (A truth that can be proved).
I made this
painting and here it is.
I am also
thinking that the moderators of this website do not actually factually have exotic Ants or Keep exotic Ant Species.
Whilst you can form all sorts of concepts and discuss those concepts it's all conceptual.
I do not
keep and never have had US Ant Species and I would have to rely on your knowledge and facts about those species, you are the experts.. Fact There is no way I could gather your knowledge about your USA species. I can read about them but you're the
hands on experts.
internet and Ant forums we would be back to very long waits on letters to arrive in the post, which is something I mentioned in another topic in this Ant
forum, because that's what ant keepers had to do 25 years ago. Everything took so long.
07/29/2009 6:27 PM
it's even sadder that you as an adult can't be happy
with the native ant species around you. Go get a membership to the zoo or even a job there instead, for example the Cincinnati Zoo has both a colony of bullet
ants and leaf cutters on display. Even better yet spend some time with your kid in a park or even your own backyard looking for that queen. There are plenty of
us on this forum more than happy to answer any question you might have along the way. I know some people just don't have the time do all that
'work,' but then maybe ants aren't the right pets for them. That must be a sad life not to have even an hour here or there to spend with your kids,
I don't care how nice your car or house is.
07/29/2009 10:34 PM
Posted: 07/29/2009 9:27 PM
it's even sadder that you as an adult
can't be happy with the native ant species around you. Go get a membership to the zoo or even a job there instead, for example the Cincinnati
Zoo has both a colony of bullet ants and leaf cutters on display. Even better yet spend some time with your kid in a park or even your own backyard
looking for that queen. There are plenty of us on this forum more than happy to answer any question you might have along the way. I know some
people just don't have the time do all that 'work,' but then maybe ants aren't the right pets for them. That must be a sad life not
to have even an hour here or there to spend with your kids, I don't care how nice your car or house is.
I never was the best writer, so I'll try to be a little clearer this time. To me there is no reason to
risk the chance a foreign ant will go invasive just so someone can have an exotic ant colony. Both sides have agreed there is no way to 100% guarantee any ant
species will not go invasive in any foreign environment. Both sides agree that if ants are sold chances are that some idiot will get hold of colony and
release it. Be it because he/she thinks all the ants are dead, he/she gets bored with them, or whatever reason, a percentage of the colonies imported will get
introduced into the wild. The debate really is over what are the chances those introduced ants will be invasive. To me as long as the trade is restricted to
zoos and labs those chances are much slimmer and closer to the level of risk we here in the US are willing to take. I think the chances go up greatly when
John Q. Public gets involved and I can't see a reason to take those chances. I know most species get introduced by goods being shipped around the world,
but again why increase the risk just so you can have some exotic ant as a pet. If you Europeans are comfortable with those risks great, just don't come
crying to me when are you over run by some really nasty ant no one thought could go invasive. I promise I won't come crying to you because I can't
have a bullet ant colony of my own. The particular part you don't understand was my feeble attempt at dealing with the common reasons I hear why we should
be allowed to buy ants. What I'm saying is if you want to see an exotic colony of ants go to a zoo. At most zoos they have a membership you can buy that
lets you in as often as you want for free. For example here in Cincinnati our zoo has both a leaf cutter and a bullet ant colony. If I spend the 30 or 40
bucks a year on the membership I can go see those ants whenever I want during normal hours for free, I think the zoo opens at 8 or 9am is open till 8 or 9pm.
If you crave being on the other side of the glass and taking care of those ants, I'm sure you could find volunteer work or maybe even full time employment
at either a zoo or lab caring for the ants. Next I take on another common complaint that it takes to much work or time to find my own ants. I thought my
opinion was clear here, but I'm not a master wordsmith. If you don't have the time or don't want to put in the work to find yourself a neat native
ant, then in my opinion this isn't the hobby for you. The last little bit was me trying to lay a guilt trip on those parents who instead of spending time
with their kids learning about ants, would rather buy them the thousand dollar bullet ant queen or whatever it is they want. It is clearly pointless for me to
try guilt trip them, because those kinds of people don't really care about their kids. But my views on this issue weren't the important part of my
post. To me this thread is no longer worthy of a sticky, because it's the same arguments over and over again. There's really been nothing new since
the first few post. Someone at some point asked why so many views so few post, that is because this thread was locked until recently. I'm hoping Antdude
or another mod will read this part unsticky this thread or at least change the title because I feel the title no longer fits. I'm also suggesting we need a
forum wide policy on the sale/trading of ants, either for it or against. It's not up to the members, but to the mods to make the policies. This is their
forum, their rules; you don't like it start your own. I think instead of rehashing of the same arguments over and over again we should have a topic
stickied that harkens back to this thread before we let the debate in. If we are still under the policy of no selling ants on this forum, then it should say
that in no nonsense language and give the reasons why. We should follow thru on it, banning those that violate it and informing the authorities where it's
illegal. If we have had a change of heart then I still say this isn't worth a sticky and should be replaced with a topic titled "The how to buy a
queen off eBay FAQ". I'm not sure I'll stay a member if I see a sticky with that title, but again it's the mods call. All I can do is throw
my 2 cents in and agree to disagree.
07/30/2009 4:17 AM
07/30/2009 7:12 AM
07/30/2009 12:54 PM
07/31/2009 7:50 PM
If it weren't for introduction Canada wouldn't be able to benefit from the existence of PIGEONS, YELLOW JACKET WASPS, RED ANTS, STARLINGS, RATS,
HOUSE SPARROWS, the list goes on...
08/01/2009 5:30 AM
08/04/2009 10:18 AM
08/04/2009 8:25 PM
I am still reading a large amount of
material on subject matter relating to the title of this topic and so thus I am not ready to add a further reply to the debate raised by the
Antscanada that is the dumbest piece of writing I have seen on this ant forum so far. Perhaps typical from someone as young as you are, but not so typical
because younger people much younger than you have really begun to understand what global warming really is and what effects it will have.
There's no need to underline or paste anything that you have
written its there and simple for those few people that may come onto this topic. I sort of bump into people saying exactly what you have just
So here is what I say: The problem is that most
people confuse Global Warming with the weather, Let me tell you that the Weather and Global Warming are 2 very different things. Global Warming won't make it
any warmer where you live. It will stay as cold as it is where you live and that will not change. Here in the UK some people must be thinking as you
are. They say things like "well I don't really see any difference in the weather" and say things about
past ice ages too.
Question: Antscanada can you please tell
us how many Ice Ages there has been on our planet since it has begun? Do you know what caused them to
warming has nothing to do with the weather, if it rains more, if there are longer summers, better warm weather or if it is a colder winter this
global warming is much more serious then the weather, so your winter will remain the same and this type of global warming is far from your romantic view of
natural climate changes that have occurred since the earth began.
the highest mountains the frozen peaks should be solid Ice, they are melting and reducing in size: The Ice caps should be huge and frozen; they are melting and
breaking up. That's nothing to do with global weather conditions and how the weather fronts change around the
globe. Because up there it is freezing cold, so why are they melting?
poles are melting and breaking up very slowly, but its freezing too there as well.
not smile because it won't make where you live any warmer, it does not work like that. That's the small talk we
get from people who really don't understand what the short term implications will be. They tend to think of the 'Weather'... This summer in the south of Europe it has been really hot weather and there have been many Forrest fires across Spain, France and
Greece.. Many firepersons have died and hundreds of families have lost their homes. It has been terrible, some newspapers write about global warming being the
reason for the heat. It really has nothing to do with global warming and it was just a very hot summer in the south of
Global warming is not the weather conditions. Weather conditions change year by year and decade by decade. century by century.
Ice ages did not reduce our atmosphere; they did not deplete our Ozone layers, You Know the layer that prevents the suns radiation from coming through to us.
If that layer disappears You may no longer be here as well. Lets put is another
way if you went into space and did not have to have a space suit and visor and the suns rays came upon you what do you think would happen?
space suits have to be cooled all the time, a mini refrigeration unit built into them.
don't worry antscanada because our sea levels will rise too and there would be huge floods all the time. I am sure
many species will survive but I do not think mankind will be here. Since you're very young you will be here to see the first things that will start to
happen and none of it will be a Natural Event.
I am really sorry to be off topic but this will affect Ant species
08/05/2009 10:18 AM
Antscanada wrote this:
'It's amazing. Perhaps the global warming (which I don't see at all as a problem... the Earth just naturally heats up and cools along with other
climactic and geolographical changes that have occurred throughout geological history naturally, e.g. the Ice Age, Antartica once being tropical) has caused
some awesome invasions of species.'
I wrote this:
So I find I now have to paste what you wrote and the first part is an opinion expressed by you and it actually reads as 'Globlal Warming ( which I
don't see as all as a problem, the earth just naturally heats up...'
I don't need to make it more clear
because you have made your statement so clear and yes you then write at the very end 'has caused some awesome invasions'.
Now of course you write a whole host of excuses and all sorts of intellectual reasoning to explain you silly statement.
Which I expected after all you had already shot your self in the foot with such a Statement.
Any way your still completely wrong the Weather has nothing to do with Global Warming,
the weather has not caused Global Warming; the natural equilibrium of the earth's weather has not added one element to the Global Warming
situation. Which will affect Ant Species because Ant species are an early indicator to changes in their natural
So if you now claim you are so knowledgeable about Global Warming, have several University degrees about the Weather why make such a statement in the first
place. So now you are Educated in the weather and its effects on the Globe.
But lack the physics to really realise that weather has nothing to do with global warming.
Having a Zoology major does not mean you understand weather conditions and Global jet streams. There are still a few academics muck more qualified then you who
still refuse to accept Global warming and I think perhaps you are such a minor expert than them. It's a sort of self denial. Even meteorologist don't
understand Global warming properly because they only studied the
Giving all that information on what you know and your qualifications and your awareness of so many subjects does not in anyway justify your so laid back a
statement... In fact it's the reverse of your rather silly excuse and you should be the one being more cautious about what you write in these forums. You
of all people should know better.
Many of the members of this forum are young and so easily influenced, and are taking there exams, the kind of Statement you wrote is misleading and in correct.
You of all people should be leading your peers into the reality and consequences of what will happen if Global Warming continues, not making such easy peasy,
willy nilly statements as if Global Warming does not really mater and its all a part of the natural development of the Earth.
Perhaps you need to go back to University and take a refresher course or retraining. If your Universities have spent so
much time, effort, money on teaching you, they have done a poor job. I have to tell you as very serious scientist I could not take you seriously at
There are lots of people out there who do degrees in Teaching but never get a job as a Teacher, that get majors in Zoology but never work with Animals, who get
a degree in Physics but never do anything with that University Degree. They don't do research, they don't publish anything... but all they do is like
to say they are experts ha ha.. Which they are not, they only have a simple degree in something and are at the very back of the queue as an expert in
Now you write:
Forums like this are for growth and knowledge
promotion (that's why I joined this forum)... not heated mean arguments of I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE AN IDIOT AND I'M
Forums are also about presenting facts, proper facts and educating people so that they
look after their Ant Species Properly, sharing ideas that are true. So much for growth and knowledge and when someone
like you misrepresents something on the Grand Scale of
Global Warming. And now claims to be an educated expert and have an ology in something, its beggar's belief.
I have never said you were and idiot, but
you are completely wrong..
Your also talking a load of nonsense with so many quotes and shear waffle...
The point and purpose of my reply to your
post is that your misleading people and as A New Memebr to this forum I am not prepared to let you mislead people. You do your own research and stop pasting in
other peoples ideas and opinions.
08/05/2009 10:53 AM
it again! The
weather being colder where you are has nothing to do with Global Warming, I have already motioned that. Because somewhere has very hot summers for a few years
people think its Global Warming... its not.. Also the acid rain and so on,,,, tut tut Thats not the weather causing
Global Warming that's just the effects from What is actually causing Global warming.
weather condition show us the Effects of Global Warming, but the weather has nothing to do with Global
Warming... think its time you got another ology
08/05/2009 12:29 PM
08/05/2009 3:38 PM
I am not
a teacher but a few weeks ago I was talking to some students who were 12 years old and they had seen some magic event.
It was so stunning that a few began to really believe something could disappear. So I got them to explain what they had seen and I then demonstrated to them
how it was done. At first they did not believe me, they thought I was lying to them and how would I know I was not there. About 10 minutes later the as they
were talking about it the penny dropped and they then were convinced that there was no real magic it was just a trick.
showed them a tiny small insect creature and placed it into the palms of there hands. It was a Queen Ant I explained to them that this queen ant could lay
100,000 eggs in her life time. They were all thinking about this, it did not seem possible that something so small
could lay so many eggs and yet live so long a life. Much better than a magic show I explained to them. WoW was the
expression on their faces as I left them to talk about the queen ants.
single person could read what you wrote antscanada and think what you wrote was the truth, you know that global warming does not matter much because the
climate has changed over so many years, its natural. Because that guy with the ology on our Ant forum wrote about it. They may not really take in the rest of
what you wrote. But believe what you said is the truth.
is some of the real truth in science is kept from the public, to stop shall we say panic. The Ozone layer is slowly disappearing and it can be stopped now but
there is a point where it will never be reversed and we have not reached that point yet. That point is not far away and we can all make a change and stop it
now so that the earth can repair that damage over the next 100 -200 years.
you never lied and for sure it was just how you wrote it, but I think you also know it's an incorrect statement, the reader could be misled.
you're an artist as well and in art the truth seems to be important, giving a message, being genuine and believing in yourself and inspiring others
The subject raised on this topic has such importance to; Antdude did
not write it for fun. This is mainly a US forum and people here in this forum have genuine concerns about people keeping and raising exotic species, illegal in
Even if I
do not agree with them they can not be wrong, they are not wrong and I am only saying there are other ways to do things or consider things. But wrong they are
not. Invasive species do have impact and it's a very important topic.
important is that none of us report things that are misleading and so far even if others in this topic agree to disagree with me, they have reported the
truth. I am sure people will read this topic and make there own minds up but the facts are here in everyone's
contribution. Oh apart from your global warming part
which I have already written about.
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